Chris (00:04.035)
All right, I want to thank everybody for joining us today. I think we have a great topic. It’s one that we get a lot of questions on. It really hits our helpline and our consultants a lot on employee terminations. And today we have John Yerger, who is the co-founder of MyJarconcierge. I’ve been my business partner for going on 15 years now. So I’m glad you could join us today.

JOHN (00:24.208)
Thank

JOHN (00:27.574)
Yeah, it’s good to be here, Chris. I’m glad to be back in the My HR Buzz Pod.

Chris (00:33.377)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. so, you know, as we talk about terminations, you know, one of those things that people need to that, you know, in the beginning, what do employers need to think about as they start contemplating these, you know, a termination?

JOHN (00:49.932)
Yeah. And that’s a good lead off question. think there’s a lot of things that need to go into that as far as preparing for that termination session. But, know, Chris, one of the things I wanted to kind of frame this around and speak to before we get into some of the mechanical and just part of this is really understanding what the mindset is of going into a termination. You know, one of the things that I’ve always felt as a hiring manager or someone who’s been involved in a number of terminations,

is that this is really an introspection of you as that manager, as that people leader. If you feel that you’re comfortable, if you hear anyone say, you know, I’m not uncomfortable going into terminations as a leader, you might not be in the right position. It’s always, it should be difficult. It should be uncomfortable. And the introspective part of that, that I’m sort of speaking to as well as what did we miss? This is our opportunity to self-evaluate. How did we get here?

I don’t think that the individual got there by themselves. think we either missed something on the front end, didn’t understand their experience or skill sets that were aligned, whether or not they were aligned with the position that we put them in. Did we do enough in the interview process to understand their cultural values? And did that go off rail and somewhere along the way where from a behavioral standpoint, it didn’t align with who we are in our culture.

So these are things that we need to as hiring managers take full stock of when we’re in that termination event, understand what are we responsible for? What are we accountable for? What did we miss? And what do we do next time to avoid that? So we find someone who has experienced skill sets and cultural values and an ethos that aligns with our culture and our company. So I just wanted to set that up a little bit and kind of speak to your listeners about that. That it is an introspection.

not just a managerial activity.

Chris (02:48.215)
Yeah, and that’s a great point because I think it, when you have to term it as a, as that hiring supervisor, a lot of it’s on you, right? To your point. And it’s amazing. And I’ve done this and you know, I shouldn’t, but you know, going in hiring somebody, you go hire a CFO or CFO, whatever that may be. And that could be a two month process, multiple, multiple interviews, you know,

JOHN (02:58.04)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (03:17.505)
But then you hire someone that maybe is not of that level and it’s, me one, two interviews that are 45 minutes apiece and you’re pulling the trigger. And so I think you’re exactly right. A lot of times we don’t take the time to really understand.

JOHN (03:34.456)
We’re trying to fill a position where we’ve got a budget. We’ve got a business to operate. We’ve got to get the ball rolling. and we might get too eager and ahead of ourselves over our skis and trying to put some in a position that maybe they’re not qualified for. And we should be held accountable of that. I mean, we can quantify the cost of what it takes to, to, replace an individual, you know, to replace the performer. have to the time and costs that it takes to interview, position, train, and get that individual ramped up to a proficiency.

Chris (04:02.114)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (04:02.808)
with a job and the position, that takes months and months. And if you make the wrong decision, you’ve got to do that over and over. So there’s a real cost to that as well.

Chris (04:12.951)
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And so as we kind of, what are things that these hiring managers need to think about when they’re starting to consider terminating somebody?

JOHN (04:16.216)
you

JOHN (04:25.097)
Yeah, and really, have we exhausted all of our other measures, alternative measures, meaning have we counseled the individual, have we coached them, meaning if under a performance improvement plan, let’s say there’s a performance deficit with the individual or areas they need to improve in to get to that proficient level that you expect, what have we done to create a plan, a plan of action that would collaborate with that individual to ensure we get them to that level?

Have we taken those proper measures and taken the time and invested ourselves in their effort to get to that level that we need them to? If it’s behavioral issues, what have we done to constructively counsel them in that and explain to them what is acceptable, what isn’t acceptable according to our company policies and really the values and again ethos that we want to create within our company. I think those things matter. They do have an impact on morale.

impact on performance. So what have we done to effectively pursue those efforts as a people leader? And then we have to document. We’re going to talk, I’m sure we’ll talk a lot about documentation. I’ll bring it up, because that is the key. We have to document every conversation we have. It’s tedious. It might be something that we really would rather not do.

but it’s necessary to have the proper documentation regardless of how formal or informal that conversation is. You really need to document those discussions and let them know I’m gonna document this. We’re gonna put in a file, I’ll give you a copy of it. It’s no problem. But let’s work together and be very transparent about what we’re doing in that whole effort with them.

Chris (06:07.169)
Yeah, and I think that’s a great point because I’ve had that question a million times, just as you probably have as well, or run across it as we’re helping a client with the termination. When we say, what kind of documentation do you have regarding this in your conversation? And the number of times I’ve heard, it was a verbal warning. I didn’t write it down. I didn’t document it. I’ve heard that a million times.

JOHN (06:17.079)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (06:27.884)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris (06:35.543)
I think that’s a great point. It’s not just the formal sit down, written write up, if you will, but it’s also those verbal conversations that just make notes and put in your files.

JOHN (06:48.46)
Yeah, exactly. And, know, even to that point, Chris, it might be helpful, particularly for newer people, leaders, newer supervisors, managers to have sort of a standardized process of documenting. And that could be a standardized employee counseling form or performance improvement plan form. That’s part of your portfolio of documents that you use going into that process. So you don’t have to, you know, I’d rather not have it scribbled on the back of a napkin or a notepad a post-it note. I’d rather have a

Chris (07:15.287)
Yeah.

JOHN (07:17.88)
on some sort of document, because what that does is allows the conversation to flow through that process. What did you do wrong? What policy violation was that? What performance standard did you not meet? What are we gonna do to correct that going forward? And what do we expect to happen going forward? And if it doesn’t happen, this is the result. So you really have a process there to make it easy to document and consistently document. Consistency is also very important and we’ll get into that.

a bit later too.

Chris (07:48.471)
Yeah, and you’re so right, because I know when I was starting out, one of the things that I was always told was whatever you do and whatever you write down, write it down as if you’re going to have to defend it in a court of law. And so being, to your point, consistent, being thorough, making sure that you’re not putting, you know, extraneous notes on there.

Those things I think are so important, specifically to where you do have that process, that defined process. I know we had a client that, this was on the other side of it, this was on hiring instead of termination. But I know we had the client one time where they got, they had issues because what was happening was they were writing these just extraneous notes on resumes.

And so what they were writing though, is they were writing things that could be deemed discriminatory. And because that was how they were keeping track with who that person was. But then what happens is someone sues them for discrimination in the hiring process. And now all of a sudden they’ve got all these resumes that they were reviewing that has these things that could be deemed discriminatory. So yeah, I agree. I think that’s a perfect point.

JOHN (09:11.831)
Yeah.

Chris (09:15.939)
Being consistent and writing those things down in a very distinct and concise way makes all the difference.

JOHN (09:23.148)
Yeah, and that’s a very good point, Chris, and to put a finer point on that, what you’re documenting is not a critique or not your personal opinion of the events, situation, what they’re doing. It’s very objective data that’s based on what are the performance standards and how did they perform, what was the deficit and why they were at a deficit. What was the standard of conduct, rule of behavior that you expect? What was the infraction specifically?

Chris (09:31.436)
Yeah.

JOHN (09:51.072)
So you’re pointing to standards of performance and you’re pointing to policy that’s documented, not your personal opinion or critique of that. So that’s a very good distinction to make.

Chris (10:03.127)
Yeah, and I guess that’s why handbooks are so important. Let’s start talking about policies.

JOHN (10:05.792)
Yes. Yeah, we’ll plug a handbook. But definitely, and it is important because that’s what we lean into is our standard when we’re talking about policy violations or infractions and that sort of thing. When we can lean up against those policies and standards that has been communicated to the employee, that has been acknowledged by the employee as a signature on an acknowledgement and receipt of that.

Chris (10:10.141)
Hahaha

JOHN (10:35.973)
Those are documents that if necessary to defend a wrongful termination or some type of discriminatory nation suit that would be very helpful for that employer to bring as evidence.

Chris (10:47.607)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And so we talked about kind of the process, the documentation, those things. how do we make sure that what we’re doing is not discriminatory? What are those steps that you kind of look at before the termination? It may not preclude you from doing the termination, but at least you know the risk that you may have, right, due to that termination.

JOHN (11:16.184)
Yeah, and I think this is where that consistency really matters and using sort of a standardized process for your either performance improvement plan, your employee counseling disciplinary process, and ultimately your termination process. If you have a process to go through that whole exercise with your employee up to termination and including termination, there’s a better chance of avoiding discrimination. Again, this is not…

where we, this is not an authoritarian exercise when we talk to someone. This is a space that, you know, it failed and we have responsibility in that while we’re levying responsibility to that individual to take. So we need to be really clear about what the policy infractions were. We need to be really clear about what the objective performance failures were and focus only on that.

Chris (11:51.427)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (12:15.702)
Don’t get dragged into an argument. Don’t get into a personal back and forth of how you feel about them as an individual. You start talking about their characteristics, their traits, who they are personally. Then you open yourself up. You’re in a subjective area where you can open yourself up for a claim of discrimination. So don’t attack the individual. Don’t go after them in that process. Go after the performance, go after the…

the infraction, the policy infraction and be very clear about it and don’t get pulled into some sort of back and forth argument of whether or not it’s true. The facts are what they are.

Chris (12:53.985)
Yeah, I know again, kind of when I was coming up, they always said just keep it simple, stupid. When you’re talking to them, keep it to the point, keep it brief, be respectful and you know.

JOHN (12:58.636)
That’s it.

JOHN (13:08.075)
Yeah, yeah, and it is is It’s not a fun place to be

Chris (13:14.901)
It’s not. It’s not a technical term, but it sucks.

JOHN (13:18.654)
It does. It does. And again, like I said earlier, it’s kind of preface this thing. We failed too. We kind of screwed up. If we’re having that meeting, I would say that we’re all culpable to some degree. We’ve got to be, again, introspective about how we got to that place too. But I think it’s okay to be empathetic. I think we’re human. We want to be

Chris (13:26.295)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (13:35.458)
Yeah.

JOHN (13:45.696)
and understanding, we want to listen, give them an opportunity to, they’re going to be emotional in many cases, and it’s okay to let them emote. We don’t need to defend our position or argue, we can just say, understand, this is difficult. And like you said, then there’s silence. But again, an empathetic posture and empathetic understanding and tone.

Chris (14:07.745)
Yeah, because the worst thing you can do, mean, is, you know, it’s kind like if you’re on the stand, the worst thing you can do is answer more than the question. And, you know, so and when you start getting into those back and forth, then both sides are getting emotional. And then you start saying things you probably wouldn’t, shouldn’t. And that’s when things can go really off the rails as far as if there is a lawsuit coming, you know.

JOHN (14:17.996)
That’s right.

JOHN (14:37.409)
And if you find yourself in that termination process and you feel like it’s getting into an argumentative or you’re trying to defend your position, that’s when you need to stop. Stop right there. And just, you know, again, to your point, keep it simple. The decision’s made. You know, I’m sorry, it didn’t work out, but we’re going to go ahead and close the conversation. You know, you’ll have a copy of your termination documentation, but we’ll want to go ahead and wrap this up. You’ll want a witness. You’ll want an HR representative or a

another supervisor and in some cases, depending on the racial or gender mix you may want to mix that up too, just to keep things as clear and objective as possible. But yeah, I think that’s really important. But again, it’s concise, it’s not argumentative, you’re not trying to make a case, you’re just informing them of where the company is at that point and we’re moving on.

Chris (15:30.177)
Yeah, that’s good. And also, I guess you really need to think through the person that’s getting terminated, their personality, you know, because safety is of the utmost importance, right? So do you need police there? Do you need, you know, because I know we’ve run across that a lot in the the past with clients.

JOHN (15:35.309)
Thank

JOHN (15:43.81)
Yeah.

JOHN (15:52.801)
It’s important to be thoughtful of that and you hate to have to think through all of those potential scenarios, but it’s a fact and I’ve been involved in situations where we felt like we probably should have security on the floor. We’re not going to parade them. We’re not going to show off, bring a show of force.

Chris (16:13.996)
Right.

JOHN (16:14.634)
want them to be very discreet, but very close by in the event that there is an incident, particularly when people leave the workplace. can maybe secure in your office, but if you have a populated workplace that they’re having to walk through to get back to their desk to collect their belongings or whatever, there are a lot of people that you have responsibility for in that building and you’re responsible for every single soul in that building. you want to be careful at that point that if emotions get the better of an individual that you have,

if necessary, ways to mitigate that. And it’s unfortunate to think that way, but again, it’s our job for the safety and well-being of all people and property within your organization.

Chris (16:56.449)
Yeah, because I know a lot. know we’ve had several cases where you guys have recommended that we have police in the parking lot, those kind of things, because, know, they could have a weapon in their car or whatever that may be. that, yeah, that that’s such something that, you know, that people need to think through, too, as far as that meeting process, if you will. So what so so so we’re having that conversation. What are things that we need to provide them?

JOHN (17:07.288)
That’s right.

JOHN (17:15.46)
Right. Exactly.

JOHN (17:26.584)
Thank

Chris (17:26.625)
What do we need to think about as far as, you we relay the news and then what do we need to tell them as part of that meeting from more of a, I would call it checklist perspective, right? What are those things regulatory would have to do?

JOHN (17:36.93)
Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that’s where I was going with that is it’s good to have a checklist and you can create a termination checklist and what it does, gives you a roadmap. It gives you a guide of how, you know, what needs to happen to button everything up that needs to be buttoned up. Obviously a company property needs to be retrieved with their keys, equipment, computers, phones, whatever that is. There’s email deprovisioning, there’s security access provisioning.

a deprovisioning that needs to happen. So if they have a key fob or any other type of badging that allows them access, we need to retrieve those. So again, it’s not a comfortable conversation. There’s a little bit of anxiety, obviously, with all of this. Motions can sometimes run on you, but having a checklist to make sure that you are, collecting the things that you need and communicating to that individual what you need to, like final pay requirements. For example,

You know, many states have unique laws related to final pay. In some cases, you have to have that paycheck right there with them at the point of termination if it’s an involuntary termination. It’s important for, you know, your listeners to pay attention and look up their state law and final pay requirements because there are laws that govern that and they’re unique. If you are a company that is required to provide continuing benefits, Cobra,

So COBRA need to have that process where the specific rights notice and instructions for electing benefits are made available to that individual. So those things are really important. What else am I missing on that? So there’s final pay, there’s COBRA. I think those are the two primary things that you wanna make sure that they are made aware of at the point of separation. And again, it’s…

You know, I don’t say there’s a right way to do a termination, if you’ve, so let me just say, you, if you’ve gone through that coaching and counseling and you’ve done it in a way where you are, you are for the lack of a better term, a cheerleader for that individual to improve. I’m, I’m here to help you. We’re going to get through this together. And I’m, I’m, with, and at the end of the day, if they don’t hit that mark, it’s, it’s almost, they recognize that they might’ve let you down.

JOHN (19:58.828)
You know, and I don’t, I’m not, I’m not interested in that and feeling that sense that they let me down. That’s not what I want, but what’s worse is they kind of let themselves down. If they could do the job and they had, they had the ability, but for whatever reason didn’t perform at the level they should or didn’t behave the way they should, you know, I want them to feel some ownership in that because to do is take that into their next job and to have that knowledge and learning and experience so they don’t do it again.

Chris (20:20.227)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (20:28.813)
Yeah.

JOHN (20:28.92)
So really it’s an ongoing effort and as human beings and as people, we’re not here to, we take no satisfaction at all in having to disrupt someone’s life to the extent that a termination does. It’s very disruptive to families and we recognize that, we have to recognize that.

Chris (20:51.361)
Yeah, I know I had somebody tell me one time that a termination should never be a surprise. if, yep, yep, to your point, if you’ve done that counseling, they’re gonna know it’s not working out. So it should never be a surprise. So what does an employer need to think about as well? So there’s a lot of different terminations, right?

JOHN (20:57.989)
They walk in knowing it

JOHN (21:05.777)
Yeah.

JOHN (21:15.551)
Thank

Chris (21:18.871)
there’s reductions in force, there’s due to, you know, there may be an incident, all those things. If I think that employee has a good chance of suing me, either not that I necessarily did anything wrong, but that the fact that that’s just their nature. I mean, what are some of those things that, and we talked about a little bit on the front end, but I mean, what are those things that,

JOHN (21:41.581)
Yeah.

JOHN (21:46.316)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (21:48.643)
I need to think about just to kind of make sure I’ve got things checked. mean, do I need to go to an attorney or my HR department? How do I need to make sure to cover myself on the front end to make sure that I don’t get bent on the back end or at least have a case where I can protect myself?

JOHN (22:06.294)
Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s, that’s super important, Chris. And you should always consult with an HR professional or legal counsel if need be. I’m not going to say go to your lawyer every time you have to terminate someone, but yeah, you have to recognize and look at the situation and understand your role. You’re there to do your job. You’re there in that instance to effectively terminate an individual, but you’ve also got to be thinking about.

company and protecting the organization. If the situation has the elements of which through your experience or intuition or whatever that is, informs you that this could be contentious. This individual, I believe, has the ability to go out and seek remedy and perhaps file a wrongful termination or a discrimination suit against us.

Chris (22:37.027)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (23:05.388)
whether valid or not, have to have the wherewithal to pull the proper resources if need be to be prepared for. And in some cases, know, Chris and my previous life, and also as a consultant, and I think I’ve had a conversation with the past couple of weeks where there was a situation termination that we advise that they seek legal counsel before they move forward.

and to run the particulars and the specifics by that attorney to make sure that whatever is necessary for them to prepare for what could be an inevitable lawsuit, do you have everything you need? We’re going to encourage you every time to have good documentation, a history of counseling, and corrective action, performance improvement. The efforts, show that you’ve made the effort, that this is not a surprise. As you said earlier, it shouldn’t be.

And that’s sufficiently managed all the way through. So when you do have to defend, if you have to defend an EEO claim or a lawsuit, you have all the evidence to support your reasoning for termination. That’s the best thing you can do for company, because these are costly, costly mistakes that are unavoidable. These are unforced errors.

Effective supervisors managers should be trained on how to effectively coach and counsel and given the tools to do that, whether that’s through their direct supervisor or through human resources, there must be a process that helps them through it. If they are ad hoc, they’re going to fail more often than not. So can’t be left up to the just subjective decisioning or process. It has to be a very clear, consistent objective process.

Chris (24:45.015)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (24:56.055)
Yeah, I agree. And I know one thing that, so with our clients, specifically those that are on kind of that subscription, we’re here to help. I always tell them, call us before termination and talk to our people. You’re on a subscription, you’re paying us whether you call us or not. Use it, call us. And a lot of that too is because I think one thing you and your team do really well at is there are bad actors out there.

JOHN (25:09.538)
Yes.

Chris (25:25.303)
that get hired intentionally to get fired. And I think one thing that you guys do a really good job at is sniffing out a lot of those situations where we could say on the front end, look, with what they’re doing, the language they’re using, they’re being guided by somebody. This isn’t normal language that anyone just off the street is gonna use.

JOHN (25:29.164)
Yep.

JOHN (25:52.514)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (25:53.399)
And I think that’s another reason to really, to reach out to that resource beforehand.

JOHN (25:57.122)
Yeah, no, I’m with you. you know, I tell people, I tell our clients, Chris, that I’m I’m an optimistic, I’m a pragmatic optimist. That’s my nature. But in our role, in our capacity as a consultant, as an HR consultant, we’re kind of paid to be cynical. And, and, and that’s not a negative level of cynicism. It’s a sense, it’s a protective level. It’s our job to protect our clients. And when we see

Chris (26:07.459)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (26:27.318)
those cues and tones in language or situational issues that are unprovoked and don’t quite make sense. We have an individual that seems to be setting you up or at least trying to provoke you into an action. And it’s unprovoked. We’re not sure where it’s coming from. We feel like they’ve either done this before and succeeded in suing an employer because the employer

Chris (26:36.481)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (26:57.516)
reacted instead of responded properly to it and hastily terminated someone and got caught up in a situation they didn’t intend to. Again, that sounds cynical, but it’s just reality. And unfortunately, we have to have our heads on a swivel and our eyes wide open and clear as employers when we’re dealing with those types of situations. And again, that’s why it’s always good to have

an objective human resource, resource, or some other entity or group within the organization that you can talk to and discuss these things. You don’t have to do it by yourself. That’s the other thing that hiring managers and supervisors, people leaders don’t have to make all these decisions by themselves. It doesn’t mean that you’re not capable of doing your job if you ask for help, particularly in these situations, right? Because they are very nuanced, very

Chris (27:53.603)
That’s fine.

JOHN (27:57.442)
complex when we’ve had situations where employers say I need to terminate this individual because they did this and on its face It’s like wow, absolutely But peeling it back and say well, why did they do that? What happened? What led them to to to cuss out another employee or physically? Yeah, whatever what it does salt or

Chris (28:14.999)
Yeah.

JOHN (28:26.56)
whatever the situation is. If you start peeling it back, there may be other factors that contributed to that that may need to be addressed too. I can’t cite a specific example, but you really have to always ask the question. We can agree on what happened. What we have to understand is why it

Chris (28:51.458)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (28:52.33)
And if you don’t go through the exercise of understanding how you got to that point, what provoked the situation, what led to the situation, there may be other factors that are equally as troublesome or potentially violations of policy two that need to be addressed. And if you don’t, then you’re setting yourself up for potential discrimination or wrong determination suit because you don’t have all the information. So you have to be an investigator. You have to be a bloodhound. When you’re going after these things, you have to get

all the corner swept to make sure you have all the information you need before you take action. And so, yeah, you just have to be careful about those types of patterns.

Chris (29:31.949)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And so we’ve kind of done all of our work. We’ve brought the person in. We’ve turned them. We’ve gotten our property. We’ve walked them off the lot or out of the building. How do we communicate with the other employees? What do we need to do? What do we need to think about from that perspective as well?

JOHN (29:53.206)
Yeah. What’s interesting, you find out that your employees tend to know everything you just learned. They’ve known it for long time, you know, because people talk and they see, they see what’s going on, you know, they, and they talk. And so they, they knew about it before you did. And so be, be aware of that. I’d say Chris and those, in those situations, you kind of limit who you talk to about it and be very discreet. You don’t talk about the specifics of it.

Chris (29:58.573)
Yeah.

Chris (30:02.551)
Yeah, they’re there every day. They see them every day.

Chris (30:23.138)
yeah, absolutely.

JOHN (30:24.216)
You know, there can be some emotionality. It could affect people in a way where they’re concerned or fearful or that was a close friend or whatever, you know. just if you have to address it, address it very briefly. Offer reassurance. And that we’re a family, we’re a team and that we’re moving forward.

and everything’s going to be good going forward. The sting will be there for a minute and then things will move on. But be discreet. Don’t dish about the particulars. Leave that alone. You can find yourself in a lot of trouble if you start talking about those specifics because those could be disparaging and those could also go back to the individual and you don’t want that to be the case either.

One thing I did want to go back to, and I didn’t mention, I failed to when we’re talking about what other things we need to think about in the termination, you mentioned layoff.

You know, if you have a layoff and if you’re in that situation, there are cases where you have to provide advanced notice. It’s called the Warren Act. So, and I think it’s, if you have 50 % of your staff, have over a hundred people, something to that effect. Read up on that if you need be, but there, are cases where if there’s a mass layoff or larger companies that you will have to provide advanced notice before the effective day. So.

there are some, it’s called the Warren, W-A-R-N Act. So if your listeners want to look that up, if they’re in a situation, hopefully not, where they’re having to contemplate a massive layoff, they need to understand their requirements there.

Chris (32:13.539)
No, no, that’s helpful. You know, one thing I was always told and it kind of made sense, but if you’re terminating someone of rank or influence, always never terminate them on Friday.

JOHN (32:16.024)
you

Chris (32:35.501)
terminate them early in the week. And the reason for that is that when you term them, if you term them on Friday, that gives Saturday and Sunday to jump on the phone, talk, build the narrative, all those things. And all of sudden, your employees are living in a dark space. And what I mean by that is there’s a void of information, so they get to make up their own. And so if you do it early in the week,

JOHN (32:37.538)
So.

JOHN (32:52.738)
Yeah.

JOHN (33:00.855)
Yeah.

Chris (33:04.557)
To your point, you’re not going into specifics, but you’re saying, hey, I had to let Joe off. This is how it affects your role. And then they can think about it overnight, come back the next day. And then if there are questions, not necessarily about their termination, but about how it affects them, they can ask those questions without it just being in a void for two days.

JOHN (33:10.328)
Yeah.

JOHN (33:28.12)
I never thought about that, Chris, but you totally lost the narrative at that point. The narrative was controlled by that weekend activity. So you just get hammered coming in Monday morning. Then you have to unwind that perception that was already given over the weekend. goodness. Well, I hadn’t considered that, but that’s a good point. So maybe so, because that gives you the opportunity early to…

Chris (33:32.589)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (33:40.225)
Yeah, yeah!

Chris (33:47.725)
That’s right.

JOHN (33:56.66)
set the narrative, control the narrative and understanding of the situation. Wow. Yeah.

Chris (34:00.727)
Yeah. A lot of people, you know, they want to digest. They go home and they digest. And then it gives you that next day, you know, or days to do that. So anyway, I always thought that was interesting.

JOHN (34:06.032)
yeah.

JOHN (34:12.672)
It is. is. it does, terminations, to terminate an individual, doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It affects everybody. It affects your organization. And again, I try to go back to the premise of this thing, Chris. And again, I always hated to have to terminate somebody. I never felt comfortable with it, never have, never will. And if someone says, I don’t have a problem with it, again, you have to question whether or not they’re in the right position as a leader, as a people leader.

Chris (34:19.875)
That’s right.

Chris (34:40.258)
Yeah.

JOHN (34:40.824)
They don’t have that because really it sounds strong, but it’s really an indictment on you. It totally is. It’s your responsibility. And if you didn’t make the right hiring decision, you didn’t provide the right training and mentoring and equip the individual with the right tools to succeed, you better be asking yourself those questions at the end of that termination process. What did I miss? What haven’t I done right? And that’s a huge opportunity. It’s a great opportunity.

Chris (34:48.385)
Yeah, it is.

JOHN (35:09.874)
Honestly, to be introspective enough and honest with yourself enough to say, got to do a better job of interviewing. What are our behavior-based interview processes looking like? What are we doing to get examples of work performance, specific examples in your work history? What are we doing when we’re trying to understand their behavioral cues when dealing with difficult situations? What experience can you glean from their previous work history?

by asking those objective open-ended interview questions. So are we interviewing right? And again, are we providing them the path to success, giving them the tools, the mentorship, the training, and the proper environment to succeed? You can have all that stuff, but if you have a toxic environment, it doesn’t matter how good they are. It’s difficult. So you as your job people leader, your job manager,

business owner to create that and accept that responsibility. And then keep challenging yourself to do a better job the next time you have to hire someone. Always keep challenging and questioning that. I think that’s healthy. And that’s the only way you’re going to get to a place where you can actually hit the marks that you need to in performance to create the culture that you want to foster in your workplace. And if you can get those two in sync,

Chris (36:35.032)
Mm-hmm.

JOHN (36:35.778)
then there’s no limit to what you can do. So, and the other side of this is don’t be afraid to terminate. Don’t sit back and shy away from making that tough decision and allow either poor performance or inappropriate behavior to continue because everybody’s watching you. And if they watch you allow that to happen, then you’re going to lose trust from your entire organization. You’ve got to make the hard choices.

Chris (36:43.256)
Yeah.

JOHN (37:05.652)
and you have to do it expeditiously, have to do it judiciously, you have to do it with compassion and empathy. But you got to do it and you got to do it the right way. We’re talking about doing it in a compliant way to help avoid challenges from wrongful terminations or any potential discrimination suits. I hear employers say, I’m an at will employer, I can terminate anybody. It doesn’t matter. Well, it absolutely matters.

Chris (37:30.648)
Yeah.

JOHN (37:33.912)
You know and certainly I agree with you as an at-will employer you can terminate with or without cause for no reason It’s just that’s afforded to you as an employer in an at-will state But it doesn’t remove their ability to seek remedy for that termination meaning an EEO hearing mediation or Potentially hopefully get not getting into some civil litigation about it. That’s what you want to avoid And I hate to say it that you know

The deck is not stacked in the employer’s favor in those situations. And Chris, you and I have seen it before where even though the employer was not wrong in their determination to terminate, getting into a situation, you either settle or you go to court, and then it becomes a financial decision at that point. If someone files a claim against you or tries to sue you,

It’s going to cost you. So make good hiring decisions, create the right culture, equip your team members with the things they need to succeed and support that. And if you approach it that way, hopefully these terminations will become fewer and further between. That’s what we’re hoping, but it’s inevitable.

Chris (38:35.619)
Yeah, one way or another.

JOHN (38:59.901)
And, but again, the point being don’t shy away from it. If you got to terminate, terminate.

Chris (39:05.795)
Yeah, I agree. I want to, I think that’s that’s a great point to it. Right. So I really appreciate you joining us today. I think it was a great conversation. I think it’s really helpful. I think it’s a lot of great information. So I appreciate you jumping on and we’ll definitely get you on some more. We’ll figure out some good topics and do more of these.

JOHN (39:16.962)
Yeah.

JOHN (39:28.076)
Yeah, I’d love to do it. And I hope your listeners pick up the buzz on this. And if they have any questions, they know where to go. If have any questions about any of this, we’re happy to help with anything we can. So it’s been a pleasure.

Chris (39:45.993)
Absolutely. Thanks so much.

JOHN (39:47.436)
Okay, thank you. Bye.