Chris Cooley (00:02.318)
I want to thank everybody for joining us today on my HR Buzz podcast. Today we have Emily Frederick with us with my HR concierge. She is a senior HR consultant for us and has been on the podcast many times. So you, you’re probably very familiar with her if you’re a friend of the podcast. And I want to thank you for being here.

Emily (00:22.673)
I’m glad to be here always.

Chris Cooley (00:24.75)
Great. Well, I appreciate it. today, I think we’ve got an interesting topic. One of the things that we know is HR is a lot of work, right? There’s a lot of things, especially when you’re in those small to mid-sized businesses where your HR person probably does HR and payroll. They have to keep up with ACA reporting and regulations and all these different things. And it’s a lot of work.

One of the big components of that is the relationship, the personal relationship with employees where they come in and they have issues, questions, all those kinds of things where it takes that HR person that has to address. And so today what we want to talk about is what do we do when we do have employees that come in and we’ll say vent, we’ll use that word.

And, you know, so how do you do that? How do you make sure one, that you’re empathetic, two, you make sure you’re not setting you and your business up for risk or liability, and then three, how do you mitigate it? So how do we kind of keep that towards only the necessary parts? And so I think that’s good because I think a lot of people are overwhelmed with that. And as we think about that, again, we’ll just use the word venting.

What is, so tell us a little bit kind of about that. So what is, what is venting and when employees come in and vent?

Emily (02:00.799)
Yeah, well, I guess for people, venting is sort of just exactly what the word implies. It’s when there’s a buildup of emotions or something that’s going on inside a person, and then they get to the point where they have to let some of it out or they’ll explode, right? So it’s just a form of emotional release. It’s letting off a little steam. It may be a response to stress or burnout or

interpersonal issues that someone has going on, but it could also be that an employee is frustrated with some processes that the company has or they’re frustrated with their own leadership. So there are a lot of different reasons people vent, but that’s what it is. It’s that letting off of the top there.

Chris Cooley (02:51.49)
Yeah, and I guess the issue or one of the big things is figuring out when they come in and they have those issues, is it, you know, I’m upset that somebody took my lunch out of the refrigerator and ate my sandwich versus something that kind of rises to a point, well, I’d be serious, but because I like that sandwich, but.

Emily (03:11.286)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Cooley (03:18.924)
But then also, you know, at the point where it gets more compliance related, more, you know, where there could be some reliability, could show have an underlying issue there.

Emily (03:29.639)
Yeah, you have to be able to know the difference. You’re exactly right. Somebody just could be coming to talk. Just I need to talk to somebody about this personality clash. This my coworker that chews gum in her cubicles so loudly every day. And if I have to listen to it another day, I’m going to scream.

And you have, so you do have those sorts of issues and then you have to be able to listen through, understand what’s really going on. So if the issue is actually something much bigger, something that could maybe end up in an investigation or something that really needs to be discussed with senior management, that you have to be able to distinguish which is which in those situations. And it could be here.

Chris Cooley (04:16.066)
Yeah, and it can be because a lot of times an HR person is the they’re kind of the Dr. Phil of the of the office, right?

Emily (04:26.401)
Yeah, I think if we’re doing it right, then we’ve made the HR office, whatever, even if you’re just an office of one, you’ve made that a safe, neutral space where employees feel like you’re going to keep things confidential and that you’re a trusted person. And so they feel like it’s a safe space to speak those things.

Chris Cooley (04:50.306)
Yeah, it is tricky too because you don’t want to supersede their supervisor.

Emily (04:58.419)
Yeah, yeah, that’s a big deal because you don’t want to come in offering solutions to issues that could have been handled by the supervisor, that really could have been mitigated from the very beginning. So.

Chris Cooley (05:12.354)
Yeah. That are really more maybe operational or those kind of things. And you know, the number of times that we’ve gotten phone calls where people go, I’m in an unemployment issue. I’m in a, I’ve got an EEO lawsuit going on or potential or a complaint that pops up and we go, okay, did they, you know, has this ever come up before?

Well, no, it really hasn’t. They mentioned it one time, but they told us not to do anything. That they just had to get it off their chest.

Emily (05:48.66)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Chris Cooley (05:53.174)
And that’s also big, you know, because if they bring it up, you can’t, I mean, you have to address it.

Emily (06:01.513)
Yeah, if it’s something that is going to wind up being a compliance issue, if it’s an issue of discrimination or harassment or bullying, then you have to do something about it. Even if the employee specifically says, look, I want to tell you something. I don’t want you to do anything about it because if you do something about it, it’s going to make everything worse over here. the HR professional has to know that there are some…

some circumstances and you have to relay that to the employee. There are some circumstances where we’re going to have to do something about it. You I’ve got to document it. We’ll have to investigate. And a lot of people don’t want that kind, they don’t want the stress that comes with that. They don’t want the, the office dynamics to change necessarily. They don’t, you know, there’s a lot of stuff that comes in with it that people don’t necessarily want to deal with right off the bat, but it’s important that those sorts of things have to be dealt with.

Chris Cooley (06:58.264)
Yeah, because, you know, we always say it, everybody’s buddies until somebody gets fired.

Emily (07:03.765)
Yeah, that’s true.

Chris Cooley (07:04.941)
And so, you know, everything’s good. I don’t want you to do anything about it. And then for whatever reason, they’re terminated fairly or unfairly. It’s all in the eye the beholder. And then all of sudden it becomes, it becomes an issue. I told them.

We had that conversation. And so it’s very important that you listen and that you’re able to determine if it is compliance or not. And so from a listening perspective, that’s an art in and of itself.

Emily (07:38.345)
Yeah, for sure. mean, active listening is one of the most important components here because you need, the HR professional needs to be able to determine at the very beginning if this is something that’s going to require further action or if the employee is just venting. But even if the employee is just venting, just needs to say some things to get those words off their chest.

the employee needs to be heard, needs to feel heard and feel as though that they’ve been validated. So, I mean, there are some techniques that people can use for active listening. They can ask good questions, some clarifying questions. It sort of seems like someone shows up at your office door and they just launch into a monologue about everything that’s bothering them for that day.

And then you can sort of weed through the important thing that actually brought them to your office and just ask some more detailed questions. Say something like, I can tell this is really bothering you. Tell me more about it. me exactly what happened in that situation. I’m glad you came to speak with me. Give me some more details. Let’s see exactly what’s going on. And then as the employee is…

giving you more details. Like it’s really important for the HR professional to not try to rush them through it, to not interrupt them or rush to a solution or, and it can be difficult, but it’s also really important that you not show bias in either direction for whatever the situation is, either towards that employee or towards the other person or issue.

that they’re dealing with. And that really helps you get a basis for what’s happening and for whether or not what is happening is going to require some further action from you.

Chris Cooley (09:45.292)
Yeah. And you know, that can be hard because we’re all human and you know, it would be so easy to go, you know what? Joe’s a pain in my rear too. I get it. I’ve never liked him and I understand. I’m with you. But you know, it’s like I always say, you know, from an HR perspective, we’re kind of Switzerland. Well, the way Switzerland used to be.

Emily (09:55.719)
I’ve never liked that guy.

Emily (10:12.769)
We need to be anyway.

Chris Cooley (10:15.086)
You know, we’re not on anybody’s side. We just listen and the facts. And it’s also tough because people are different. And so you almost have to treat it when you’re listening and taking a lot of these things into account. People are very different in how they share and what they say. I’m not a sharer. I’m not going to come in and give you 30 minutes worth of sharing. I may come in and give you a minute or two minutes, but that’s about it.

Emily (10:33.857)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Emily (10:39.424)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (10:44.341)
Uh-huh.

Chris Cooley (10:44.574)
And so it’s really an art form to be able to deal with those diverse personalities like that and determine, you know, to try to filter that person that you shared for 30 minutes or pull out information from me that goes on for 30 seconds and expects you to know everything that, you know, that I’m thinking.

Emily (11:06.785)
It’s definitely a skill because just like you said, you have those people that are, I’m thinking of that using a tea kettle that’s steaming. You have those people that will just bubble over about everything. there’s, you know, I don’t necessarily want to say vomit, word vomit coming out of their mouth, but that’s exactly what it is. And so you have to know that there are those people and then there are those people that you’re going to have to dig and pry for any sort of information.

Chris Cooley (11:26.68)
Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (11:36.685)
And so being able to deal with either one of those and hash through what’s actually going on and see if there’s anything you can fix is it’s a special skill.

Chris Cooley (11:46.894)
Yeah, and just trying to keep them on track because the number because I know a lot of times we’ll get calls for that where that person will call and say, you know, and they Somebody didn’t show up on time. Whatever it is and and then it’s like, know last year what happened was they did this and this and this and then and then Susie did that and then we had this problem and so

It’s how do you reign them, it’s reigning them in into whatever that point is for that situation and not going back 10 years worth of plant gossip about everybody and then trying to take all of that and kind of filter that down into what really matters, right?

Emily (12:24.747)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (12:30.653)
Yeah. So I mean, there are some pointed questions that you can ask. And one of my favorites is, is this actually affecting your work or did you just want to talk to me about it? You’re welcome to just talk to me about it. But if it’s something that’s really affecting your ability to do your work, let’s get into that so that I can see how I can help. And so the pointed questions definitely do help there.

Chris Cooley (12:57.676)
Yeah, no, no, that’s a good, that’s a good point. That’s a really good point. And then, and then, you know, as they come through, and we’ve kind of filtered and we’ve heard and we’ve listened and they’re, they feel, feel better. And regardless of whether they say, do some, you know, I don’t want you to address it, then it’s, what do you do if it is something that needs to be addressed, you know?

Emily (13:21.535)
Yeah, I think there are a couple of key things that you really need to listen for. So you would need to listen for anything that, first of all, even if it’s something that’s not discriminatory or sounds like harassment, if it’s a repeated behavior that keeps going on and on, if it’s an interpersonal issue that keeps being repeated, at the end of the day, that could be creating a toxic work environment that

could be a little bit aggressive and it might be something that needs to be addressed with another person or something like that. But then you have the bigger issues of discrimination, harassment, safety. And when you have those big issues that come in, you need to let the employee know that you’re going to have to discuss that with someone else. You’re going to have to advance that to the next level and then and let them know that, you know,

may not be able, you may not be able to keep it entirely confidential, but there are some actions that would need to be taken and then you would just need to go through your standard investigation procedures.

Chris Cooley (14:28.876)
Yeah. And I guess when we get into that part, we’re talking about, you know, it’s all about documentation. You know, you’re starting to get, you know, at that point, to your point, you get to that normal routine, right? Doing your investigation, doing your interviews, doing your documentation. Typically, most people have that somewhat outlined in their handbook. So everybody should know what’s going on or what’s going to occur. But it’s following this

Emily (14:34.529)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Cooley (14:57.738)
internal policies and procedures.

Emily (14:59.967)
Yeah, yeah, there are your procedures for whatever investigation, know, who needs to be alerted, who needs to be interviewed, etc.

Chris Cooley (15:08.108)
Yeah. And I think one good, one thing you mentioned that I think was good is that word repeated. because also what should happen theoretically is if, if Joe’s swiping, you know, Susie’s sandwich every day, then we know that there’s something kind of more to that. But as that HR person, theoretically, it could be that they’re having hearing the same thing from other people where they’re doing

Emily (15:15.009)
Mm.

Emily (15:35.659)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Cooley (15:37.076)
something to them as well, if that makes sense.

Emily (15:40.063)
Yeah. So, and maybe that’s something that you could sniff out in the investigation process, you speaking with the employees manager, the employee supervisor asking if there are other issues that you haven’t been made aware of. And this employee is…

acting on these little microaggressions all through the company. And that’s something that needs to be addressed and documented for sure.

Chris Cooley (15:59.672)
Yeah.

Chris Cooley (16:04.204)
Yeah, yeah, because again, all this, it comes up and it’s not addressed, at some point it’s going to come out. And so it is important to take that into account because like said, I know we we have had a lot of situations that start just by that same conversation, right? They told me not to do anything, so I did.

Emily (16:11.073)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (16:26.401)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And while I was just going to say, it’s so good that employees will come and speak to us as the HR person. But it’s also important that in instances like that, maybe that’s something that the supervisor could have addressed earlier if they had said something to the supervisor. So I think that’s another skill that it’s important that

Chris Cooley (16:28.38)
ahead.

Emily (16:54.407)
managers and supervisors know how to engage in that active listening and engage in those types of conversations with the employees so that not everything has to come to HR. You know, sometimes an issue of

Billy’s listening to music too loudly while I’m trying to work is something that can be handled on the supervisor level. so training our supervisors and our managers and how to deal with those things and letting employees know that they can take some of those issues to their supervisors and managers. So it’s kind of creating a culture of open communication. And that will help immensely when people feel like they can speak with their supervisors.

Chris Cooley (17:13.07)
Right.

Emily (17:39.305)
and that they won’t be reprimanded for bringing something up, it’s a more comfortable environment for everyone.

Chris Cooley (17:46.284)
Yeah, and I think that’s a good point because the first stop should not necessarily be the HR.

And that’s, you know, and there’s, there’s, you know, and I get it. A lot of times supervisors that, that skill, I they’re supervisors, one, they can manage people, but also they’re very good at what they do. So while they were promoted at whatever that thing is that they do or that area that they ever see. But a lot of times that those soft skills are not, are not there. And so one of the big things is training and it’s training the supervisors to understand that.

Emily (18:05.557)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Cooley (18:22.51)
And then also to have that ongoing dialogue where it’s, you know, it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to walk up every day and ask, hey, how are you doing today? Is there anything I can help you with? But maybe it’s weekly one-on-ones depending, you know, a lot of that depends on size of group and those kinds of things. But you can do things like that that can help draw some of these issues out and also gain trust.

Emily (18:33.12)
That’s right.

Emily (18:46.133)
Yeah, so little check-ins and then having other methods for employees to voice concerns if they are bigger or maybe the concern is the supervisor themselves, but having other methods that are not necessarily taking it straight to HR, but are just an avenue where someone can communicate an issue that’s going on. Anonymous employee tip lines are wonderful for that sort of thing.

Chris Cooley (19:12.782)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (19:14.997)
where if someone doesn’t feel comfortable addressing the situation with anyone, and or if they want to completely stay anonymous, being able to call and leave a message that explains the situation, explains what’s happening, and gets noticed to the proper individuals who can handle it. But again, that’s not necessarily your HR person. So there’s that.

Chris Cooley (19:39.63)
Yeah, because yeah, and you know, we’ve had tip line calls where they, know, it’s the president they’re talking about and those kinds of things. you know, and it’s hard to, they need an avenue to do that, to be able to say those things. And so I think too, as it gets to that compliance component,

Emily (19:55.583)
Yes.

Chris Cooley (20:04.438)
and we’re going through that investigation. I think it also is important that we talk to that employee about, here’s what to expect, right? Here’s how this is how the investigation is gonna go. This is what we will and will not reveal. And this is kind of the timeline that we anticipate. And that doesn’t matter that we have to keep them in granular detail.

of everything that’s going on because there are things that are confidential that maybe they don’t need to know. They just need to know that it was addressed. They don’t necessarily need to know that we, you know, we wrapped Johnny on the knuckles with a ruler and we got him good for you. But they at least need to know that things were addressed, taken care of, and it’s time to move on. Depending on, you know, obviously it depends on if it’s disciplinary or termination or those things. But I think that’s one big thing too.

Emily (20:38.987)
That’s right.

Emily (20:59.039)
Yeah. Yeah, the situation that you were concerned about, we heard you, we listened to you, and this is how we addressed it. And hopefully we won’t have that situation anymore.

Chris Cooley (21:13.198)
Yeah. And then, you know, with that, we take those actions, right? We talked about the investigation, we kind of communicated back with the employee. You know, one of the main things too is we know, and there was a survey that came out, Sage did it, I it last year, and it was like 98 % of HR people love their job. 81 % of HR people are burned out.

Emily (21:42.881)
Yes. HR wears so many hats. And so not only are we trying to do our job description, but we’re also that safe place and that neutral space where people know that they can bring their issues. But if we get every issue all the time, then it stacks and stacks and builds. And so people need to be mindful of

Chris Cooley (21:48.814)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (22:11.637)
whether they’ve set up some boundaries with employees, you know, saying, I am absolutely a neutral space. If you need to confide something, if you need to bring something that is work related to me, I am here for that. Maybe I’m not here to be the person that you speak to regarding your relationship issues or, you know, whatever’s going on at home or, or even the person that you come and explode on because you were in a bad traffic incident this morning, you know? So,

HR professionals need to have some things that they can offer employees when those situations arise, whether that’s, you know, we have an EAP, let me introduce you to our EAP and we might be able to find someone that you can talk to that’s not me. So that we can keep ourselves healthy and effective at work too.

Chris Cooley (23:00.558)
Yeah.

Chris Cooley (23:06.722)
Yeah, that’s a good point. And know, EAPs, have individuals that are licensed and that’s what they do. If you have personal issues, if you have family issues, they’re therapists and that’s what they do. They can help. And you know, also, it’s like we talked about, there’s a lot of stress, there’s a lot of things going on. There’s a lot of what I would call daily tasks, just regulatory things.

Maybe they process payroll, those kind of things. In addition to managing these issues, right? And so, you know, I do think it is very important to have those other avenues because if you’re trying to be the Dr. Phil for the office and you’re taking on the personal issues of everybody, you’re taking on the work issues of everybody, it wears you out emotionally, physically,

and will just burn you out. And so, you know, I think that’s the tip lines, the setting the boundaries on what we can and can’t talk about, the EAP, the supervisors, making sure that they go to the supervisors first, defining the open door policies, those kinds of things are all great ways to, we want to help, we want to be here, but

Emily (24:23.041)
Hmm.

Chris Cooley (24:34.338)
but putting framework around what we’re here for.

Emily (24:38.111)
Yes, you know, I am a great listener and I am here to talk to you about things, but I’m not a licensed professional counselor. So there are some issues that are just simply beyond me. And at the same time, I have to make sure that I’m okay too. And if I’m taking on everything for everybody, then I’m not effective at work. I’m not effective in my personal life anywhere. And so it’s a little bit of a protection thing to be able to have all of those other measures in place.

Chris Cooley (25:07.886)
Yeah, and by nature, think a lot of HR professionals are that way. They want to help. And they want to do that. And they want to listen. And they want to be there for all of that. It’s just self-preservation. You just can’t do it. It’s timing, right? I mean, if everybody comes in and sits in your office for 15 minutes a day, you’ll never get to the end of

Emily (25:15.339)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (25:32.241)
my goodness.

Emily (25:35.975)
No, no, you’ll be there all day. Just open, close the door all day long, taking notes. Sure, yeah, I know. And your husband did what? No, but it would be a lot for anybody.

Chris Cooley (25:44.141)
Yeah.

I mean, it turns into a Jerry Springer shot, you know?

Emily (25:49.505)
It could, it could. And I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it between two employees. seen, I’ve, have seen, you know, people almost come to fistfights because of little interpersonal issues that could have been addressed. You know, in, in one case, I saw something that could have been addressed literally 20 years ago. And it just never was. And it bubbled and bubbled and bubbled until these two men were almost in a fistfight. And so it’s, there are so many ways that we can mitigate.

Chris Cooley (26:02.936)
Yeah?

Emily (26:19.581)
earlier until something, you know, before something really blows up.

Chris Cooley (26:20.75)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that is so important. because these people interactions are so I mean, in HR, it is it’s kind of what we do. And so it’s how to manage that I think is a huge and from a personal preservation, and then also from a liability.

Emily (26:33.793)
Mm-hmm.

Emily (26:41.845)
Yes, yes. So knowing when it’s something that needs to be addressed versus someone just letting up a little bit of steam, there’s a difference and you need to be able to see the difference and then recognize the steps that need to be taken afterwards.

Chris Cooley (26:45.422)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Cooley (26:54.488)
Yeah, well good. Well, what else? Is there anything else that we kind of missed here? I know we’ve kind of hit a broad swath of different areas or different topics here, but I think it’s needed. I think it’s a good thing, especially for, like I said, the small to medium-sized businesses that have an HR department of one or an HR department of

Emily (27:10.495)
I don’t think so.

Emily (27:21.045)
Yeah, for sure.

Chris Cooley (27:24.95)
a half because they’re also doing for other jobs as well. But we’ll know. Well, good. We’ll know. I appreciate you jumping on. And I think it’s a good topic and hopefully it’s helpful. And hopefully it kind of alleviate or give some ideas on one, how to address that liability, but two, just help set boundaries and alleviate some of that.

Emily (27:30.869)
Yeah.

Chris Cooley (27:52.514)
consternation and stress that we can have.

Emily (27:55.455)
Yeah, I think so. Thanks for having me.

Chris Cooley (27:57.102)
All right, yeah, and I want to appreciate it. I appreciate everybody joining us today and we look forward to talking to you next time. Thank you.